Gurbani, Bush, and Sikhi & Homosexuality
KabeerHaaddJaraeJioLaakareeKesJaraeJioGhaas
Kabeer, the bones burn like wood, and the hair burns like straw.
EhJagJartaDhekhKaiBheiouKabeerOudhaas 36
Seeing the world burning like this, Kabeer has become sad.
Waheguroo jee ka khalsa!
Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!
So, I had some thoughts on Bush today. Don't get me wrong, I am a patriotic American (to an extent) BUT I think Bush is anti-american and in the end will always be seen as someone who damaged this country and ruined our economy, our values, and our freedoms. (Yes, I know this post will make a certain friend very angry, but hey, I have to say it).
Just some thoughts on 9/11 (note: i haven't yet seen fahrenheit 9/11, but I plan to, someday).... Heres some questions to make you think... On 9/11, all planes were grounded, yet 75 or something members of bin laden's family were flown out of the country on special military transports. Here's something to consider, The country had just been attacked, what was the pressing concern to immediately airlift them out of there? logic would say, keep them in the country, see what they know, right? How did they know it was bin laden? nobody knew till that night I don't think. Seeing as how bad the intelligence community was then, how could they have known immediately to send bin laden's family out of country?
A week later, the white house released pics of bush at the elementary school he was at during the attacks. This raises more questions.. I've seen the pics and read the official and unofficial stories (sorry cant find links now... hmm). The country is seemingly under attack by an unkown threat, why would bush sit in florida for another hour reading stories to school children? wouldnt the secret service take him to a secure location? or shouldnt he be at the white house or on airforce one cooridinate civilians and military operations?
the pictures are meant to be in the hour bush was at the elementary school. It is interesting that the clock is spinning around between 8 am and 8 pm, perhaps they had a later photoshoot to make fake pictures?
later, bush talked about this in a speech and said "I was going to my limo and I saw on the tv screen the first tower being attacked. How could he have seen the first tower? nobody had footage of the first tower, unless there was some intelligence camera positioned to watch it, that only bush had access to. wouldnt this suggest prior knowledge of 9/11? theres so many questions..
anyway, on to the sikhi part of my post, enough politics. I was at school the other day and there is this boy, who is kind of strange. Basically, he has tried to flirt with me and all the other boys in the class on previous occasions.
well, this time, he started asking me questions about sikhi. He asked if gay marriage was allowed. And I said no. He said why not? I said because kaam (lust) in general is frowned upon whether its with a man or woman. Sex is for procreation, other indulgences are against gurmat and wrong. He said "how can they force you to do that?" I said, nobody forced me! I took amrit as a choice and making that choice, we take a vow of chastity, by getting baptised, we have made a choice to live our lives for the better.
He just couldnt understand.. Apparently he is catholic and native american. Most catholics have a messed up view of religion anyway I think, many of them are so dissillusioned. Anyway, he said "I'm lucky I'm native american, we have 6 genders." This led into this whole discussion on native american beleifs. He obviously has a skewed viewpoint.
Anyway, the point I am trying to make here is that homosexuality is against gurmat. Because in sikhi, only a man and woman can participate in anand karaj, there are many rehatnamas alluding to this as well as historical fact. so if a man and woman can only do anand karaj and only those who are married can have sex (for procreation) where does this lead gay/lesbian "sikhs." I guess either they remain chaste or get married only for procreation or platonic companionship. I dont see anything wrong with either of those choices.
Indulgence in kaam is a disease that has spread across the globe and is now infecting gursikhs of all walks of life. we need to do something about it and fast before our panth is entirely overrun with this disease.
I want to iterate, I have nothing against homosexuality, but one cannot be a Sikh and a homosexual, it just doesn't work.
posted by Manjot Singh Khalsa at 1:31 PM
16 Comments:
Stooooopid post.
Manjot Singh, for your own sake, don't accuse people of mass murder when your facts are all wrong. It makes you look crazy.
i am crazy.......
hmmmmmmmmmmmm
Hey manjot ! Nice post :D
When you say sex is only for procreation, does that mean an amritdari couple with 3 kids has only had sex 3 times. What if they didnt get it right the first time..Or they wanted to get jiggy with each other and not have a kid. So if i ever see an amritdari singh with a condom hes doing something wrong no matter if hes married or not right. Cuz that means he aint tryin to have kids. Ill keep that in mind stilll.
Homosexual Sikhs exist, believe it or not.
I am an openly gay Sikh man living in London UK who has been in a relationship for over a year. What I have is love, not Kaam. It may be outside of marriage, but the reason why marriage was deemed the appropriate context within which to have a sexual relationship was because of the lack of committment between individuals outside of marriage during the Early Modern period in India. It is now possible to have sexual relationships with a similar committment level as marriage in the Modern world, hence why the institution of marriage is disintegrating.
On another point, homosexual marriage in Sikhism is possible. Read my article in www.sikhe.com regarding this matter. I believe the article was posted in July 2001.
Please feel free to make any additions to this comment as/when necessary in your eyes.
Regards,
Jasvir Singh
This post has been removed by a blog administrator.
Pyare Jasvir Singh,
Homosexual Sikhs do not exist, beleive it or not. I am not a bigot, but please allow me to explain my reasoning to you as you seem completely ignorant of what Sikhi really is. Your post makes me wonder if you have even read a single line of gurbani in your life (not to sound condescending).
How can you be homosexual and Sikh? First off, a Sikh is defined by one who is on the guru's path and has followed his instructions. Even the loosest of interpretations (SGPC) says you must be amritdhari or on the path to such. So if you are not amritdhari, how can you be Sikh?
If you are amritdhari, how can you be kaami without marriage as this is a requirement. To say that Sikh teachings apply only to that time is also complete ignorance of what Sikhi is meant to be. Guru sahib tells us again and again that Sikhi and gurbani is Jugo Jug Attal, meaning it is true throughout the ages. It is a guide to salvation that will *ALWAYS* be true. In fact, Sikhi is a very modern way of life, so modern that even today the world has not caught up to its true teachings and intentions.
So, if guru sahib tells us that one cannot participate in kaam without being married (again a very loose interpretation), then how can you be gay? I have not read your article on sikhe, and frankly I don't intend to as I do not have the time at the moment, but I have read articles from gay london "sikhs" before and truthfully went away laughing.
I am really not trying to sound condescending, but rather truthful. Anand Karaj as is written in MANY rehatnamas and with historical evidence is ONLY for a man and a woman. Saying that there werent gay people back then or that guru sahib didnt consider them would also be a fallacy as gay people were around and well documented. Yet guru sahib told us that anand karaj is only for a man and a woman. To be even more accurate guru sahib told us that anand karaj is only for an amritdhari man and an amritdhari woman (this has only changed in the last 75 or so years).
So again, how can one be a gay Sikh? I know of "gay" amritdhari Sikhs. They know what Sikhi teaches and have decided to either remain celibate, marry to have a plutonic friendship, or marry to have children etc.
I hope to read a reply from you on this.
--your brother
I agree with most of this post, and your views against bush. You really need to see Farenheit 9/11, very educating movie.
Jasvir Singh,
bro, i am a straight sikh, but i support you 100%!!! i know there are many gay sikhs out there and they are all in the closet. they are very unhappy with them selves because of lack of suport. its hard enuff being a sikh in the west.. let along being a gay sikh. i just want you to know that you have my support and respect. if you know of any younger sikhs who are homosexual, i ask of you, please talk to them. ive talked to a few but im straight, i cant even begin to imagine the things they go through with society and friends. once again brother... i suport you. thank you for that wonderful post!!!!
love and respect,
deep singh
Let me start off by saying that Jasvir...you are a disgrace. Fags don't belong in this world. They are destroying society. Just look at what is happening in Canada. These bizarre creatures are demanding the same status as normal people. Marriage is a very sacred thing that has ALWAYS been defined as a union of a man and a women for thousands of years and across many cultures. Fags and dykes account for a small portion of society but they demand equal rights as normal people. Society is already losing its moral standings. Next thing that will happen are the following:
1. Rape will be considered acceptable because the man needs to have sex so if he can't get it voluntarily then he has to force it.
2. Child porno is going to be legalized because it brings the man pleasure and the kids are getting free things.
3. Prositituion is going to be legalized because it is ok for a man to buy sex.
All these things are crap and this is where society is headed. The morality is going away and this is very disturbing.
We need a new Hitler to get rid of fags and dykes!!!
There is a wide difference between allowing to consenting adults to make a happy relationship together and allowing rape and sexual abuse....By the way nearly all convicted rapists and sexual abusers fall into the heterosexual bracket. Your arguement is dull and not even logical.
Who knows what goes through your mind, but trying to link consenting lovemaking with rape and sexual abuse is a bit of an impossible task as rape and sexual abuse come about when one or more parties involved in the act do not consent or are not old enough to understand consent (hence the concept of age of consent). In some states in the US this age is 12, in most of the world that is child abuse. I think there is more to be concerned about with 12 year olds getting married to men over 30 than two men or two women falling in love or just having sex with each other......
Hitler used to love his women to piss on his face and had a sexual relationship with his own niece. So he's probably not the best choise to make this world a less "perverted" place...
What an odd person you are anonymous!! It must be awfulfor you to know there's all this gay sex going on out there.
Manjotji:
Waheguruji ka Khalsa, Wahegurugi ke Fateh!
I am a Sikh convert, a gori Sikh in the US. Why did I convert? Because when my marriage was crumbling, when I hated myself thoroughly for it, I read the Sri Guru Granth Sahib. Not all of it obviously, but the Mool Mantar and as much as I could. The night I read it I cried like a baby. I could not forgive myself for what I had put my spouse through. But SOMETHING forgave me as I read. SOMETHING touched my soul, and as I crawled back into bed with my spouse of 13 years I could feel all the weight, all the horror of that hellish time dissolve in the most peaceful, unconditional love I have ever felt.
That SOMETHING is Waheguru, plain and simple. And both me and my spouse are female. If it is not Sikhi to be homosexual, then nobody has bothered to tell the True Guru for s/he has made our relationship incredibly strong and loving again.
Do not confuse kaam with love. Love is the willingness to become one with another person. Lust is about using the other person for sexual release and considers them no better than an object. Believe it or not, I am queer not because I want sex with my partner but because I want to be with her always, to we both pass from this life.
GurFateh, my brother. I do not expect you to agree with me, but please keep an open mind and talk to GLBT people, not just Sikhs but GLBT people from all walks of life. You will be suprised at how much of our humanity you have taken for granted.
Remain in Chardi Kalaa, my brother
Jogindar Singh Kaur
I am a Bi male Sikh. But so far I have only had girl friends. I think what the Waheguru wants is freedom. Freedom through individuality. That is why he made so many Races,Languages,Religions, and Sexual Orientations. It's really all a test you see. If we discriminate, what better are we than the "anomyous blogger" who "thinks there should be another Hitler"? Or just your good old fasioned fanatic who condems you to hell for not being whatever religion they are. This is called hate. And most christians don't realize : there is a commandment that states "treat others as you would have them treat you" it has earned the name "the golden rule". And for a reason. If the shoe was on the other foot, and being striaght was considered "non-orthodox" would you like the nagging people condeming you to hell. An attraction to the opposite sex is what comes natural to straight people. If you were straight and were asked to be intimante with a member of your gender, you probably wouldn't.
Same for us matter of fact.
I know it is generally looked down upon, but I'm Bi. But I still treasure Sikhisim because of how liberal it is. There is no Sikh equilivent of a "Pope" or even a "priest". Men and Women are equal. And I think that if love is ture, than it dosent matter if your male or female. Just like it dosen'nt matter if your white or black, or Indian, or whatever. "Love conqures all"
I think there is nothing wrong with being a Gay or Bi Sikh . Every human being is a mirror image of god as he/she was created by god . So why would god want inappropriate creatures to roam the earth ?
I think love is more important than genders of people falling in love .
sex is kaam. purpose controlled kaam is to reproduce. only a man and woman can reproduce. A man and man cannot, nor can a woman and woman.
Purpose of a man and woman union of marriage is to pro-create. A homosexual union cannot produce anything , therefore it is 100% kaam practice. kaam is 1 of the 5 evils and homosexuality comes under that same kaam. homosexuals must overcome this kaam through naam simran and grow strong enough to defeat it.
any1 who says homosexuality is allowed in sikhism, needs a backhand slap.
do naam simran !
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